The Inside Scoop of Roth Conversions

Listen in to ‘three dudes’ talking about the inside story of doing Roth conversions. Craig, Derrick DeHays and Ted Irwin talk about the specialized field of Roth conversion advice. Learn about the fears that many people have around Roth conversion and how these guys help walk with them through the journey.

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Transcript

0:44

Hey, welcome back to What's Next with Retirement with Craig Weir. So glad you decided to join us again today. Um, got a special, um, kind of a special deal lined up for you. I've got a couple guys that you, if you're watching this through a podcast, uh, video, then you see a couple of faces that you haven't seen before. If you're just on audio, I've got two guys with us that are, that are the kind of the lead guys on our team. I've got, uh, Derek De Hayes. We call him Captain de Hayes, and we got Ted Irwin. Welcome to the program, guys. Glad to have you on with me this time. Thanks, Craig. Thank you, Craig. So what are you thinking about this whole podcast thing and getting your voice and your face out there to the masses? I don't know, I just wanna know if my voice is sexy. That's all. Yeah, you got it happening, man. You got it happening. So, uh, the topic of today's program is, uh, we wanna just give you the inside scoop on Roth conversion strategy. As boring as it may be to some people, uh, some people get real excited about saving a million bucks in taxes. Um, and so for those of you that are here, because you're kind of interested in that, what I hope to do is to, you know, we just, the, the tone of this podcast is, uh, the three of us who specialize in this area and got a lot of experience in the financial field. We're just gonna have a conversation. I'm gonna ask some questions and I want you to be able to just kind of listen in and to glean out of this what you can. It will help you in your own journey, whether it's Roth conversions or retirement or whatever the case may be. I just want this to be something of value to you. But before we do this, guys, I got a big announcement that I don't think you guys even know. So, um, collectively since I wrote the first book, paying the Piper, we. All of us together with our clients have put together Roth conversion strategies that total as of the date of this recording, 997 million of savings. That's more than a golf clap. That's a big deal. So, um, thank you guys for being a part of that. A billion dollars in tax avoidance is what we've helped people get. So the book that started all that is called Paying the Piper, and I think maybe it's the book that saved a billion dollars. How's that sound for a, for a tagline, right? Lots of bees. Very the annunciation. There's really good. Yep. Fantastic. So you can go to, uh, Craig Weir, that's w e a r craig weir.com and you can actually get that book for free. It's, uh, paying the piper and it's, uh, we'll just start calling it the book that saved a billion dollars. And I dunno about you guys, but I'm ready to now start working on our second billion. How about we do that starting as soon as we get done with this? How's that sound? Let's do it. Absolutely all. So you guys came from different areas of the financial, um, you own journey. Um, just. Um, just very generally just kind of tell the audience kind of where you've been. Uh, and you don't have to use the name of the firms necessarily, but just kinda, you know, what you did and, um, what caused you to make a swap. I mean, make a switch and kind of join, uh, our team over here in this grand adventure. Ted, why don't you go first? Well, you know, I, I was in fee-based asset management for a large part of my career. After, uh, I did, I did work at Schwab where I first started in the, the financial services. And, uh, then more recently I was working with some high net worth clients. Uh, a small group of people, kind of working as a chief of staff, uh, managing their money, helping'em manage their business, and, uh, enjoyed that a great deal. Um, but I wanted to get back to the. The masses, you know, the mass affluent people, the folks that, uh, you know, make, make the economy move and, and work with a lot of different people. So, um, talk to Craig. There's, there was, you know, multiple things that I wanna do, but two of them were, I've always been an advocate of Roth. I. IRAs. And the other thing was, uh, helping people, saving taxes. And, uh, ultimately that's, that's what, uh, made me wanna work here and help people. And it's the most enjoyable job I've ever had. I get to work with people all over the country from the comforts of my, my own home, and, um, just look forward to work every day. And, and, uh, you know, back in the day, I'd Sundays, I, I, I'd be dreading Mondays and now I look forward to Monday on Friday. So it's just been fantastic. Awesome. Sounds great. And so, um, Derek, you've had a different journey, so kind of give us a summary for you. Yeah, I'd say, you know, my, um, kind of cut my teeth in the private bank world and bank and brokerage world, um, doing financial plans and investment management and marketing and getting new clients in and getting'em all invested and doing some good things for'em. Spent 20 some odd years doing that. Um, you know, and, and as of late, I just realized that there was a lot of that business that I didn't like. Um, and there was the, the one piece that I really liked was the financial planning piece and helping people solve issues. And it, as it turns out, most of the folks in that industry, in the brokerage world and in the banks, they're doing that about 10% of the time. You know? Yeah. So, I, I thought I need to do more of the things I enjoy doing less of the things I don't, um, When I met you and, and figured out what you were doing and, and how it was helping clients, and it fit right into exactly what I wanted to do. So, um, awesome. You know, if I had these tools, uh, years ago when I was, uh, working, um, at the private banks and I've helped hundreds of clients do Roth conversions, but wow, I almost did'em a disservice because I didn't have, I didn't know what I know now. Yeah, so that's a great segue to really the next question I wanted to ask you guys. I mean, you know, when I, when I first got kind of pushed into this Roth conversion, I call it specialty, it was by a guy who came in after listening to the talk radio show and I put it in, I wrote about it in that first book, and it was, You know, the guy was basically just saying, you know, I, you seem like a pretty smart guy, but I think you're missing the boat when it comes to the tax planning part for us as we get older. And he told me this story about turning, just having turned 70 and a half, and he had his first required distribution on an IRA that he had, hadn't had to touch for a long, long time and, and all the problems that that cause for him. And he kind of put me in a position of, you know, just kind of saying, you know, Craig, you need to go figure this out. And we did for him. And, and his world changed because he did the conversions. Um, a lot, a lot changed for him and he insulated himself from taxes for the rest of his life. But, um, what that educational journey for me started with kind of spreadsheets and then it became complex spreadsheets, and then I realized spreadsheets just were, they were gonna take an incredible amount of time. And if I missed one thing, It was garbage and garbage out. But, but during the course of working with a lot of clients, I learned that there's a lot more than just the math on this. There's, there is the math, but there's a lot to know about kind of how to put all the pieces together. But, so Derek, can you, I mean, can you put into words. How your knowledge about Roth conversions has changed since you really started specializing in this field with us? What? Yeah, what? What's been the biggest differences that you noticed, or the biggest changes, or the epiphanies or the aha moments, or the oh crap moments that come to you. Right. And, and in my career, um, you know, even partnering with clients, advisors, their CPAs and, and others, uh, we still come, came up with almost the exact same scenario for all clients unless the client had an issue when they wanted to do things extra fast or extra slow. We didn't know the reasons, the benefits of doing it extra fast or slow. But, but the. The solution was the same for everyone. And you know that's not true, right? Yeah. So what we put together here, and what I, I found out was that everything is completely tailored. For the client situation. And you're not just doing, um, the same thing for every client, which is really what most of the industry is doing, you know? So yeah, it's a big difference. It's a big difference. And then the tools, you know, the tools, like you said, what you, um, started with the spreadsheets, that which can be cumbersome, but you know, the tools give you what you need in order to help the client and customize that strategy. Yeah. And, um, the tools that Derek's talking about is, I mean, I had to go to the lengths of hiring software developers because of all the moving pieces that go on and, and the, and the desire to really optimize. What each client's strategy was now meant that we had to do, we had to run a a lot of iterations to find the absolute best one, and then we would change anyway. It just became one of those things that, you know, a friend of mine that I was showing this to once, Several years ago he said, you know, you know, a software guy can like automate all this for you. Right? Well, he didn't tell me it was gonna be hundreds of thousands of dollars of programming later, but yeah, it can get done. So how about you Ted? How, how has your knowledge about Roth conversions changed? I mean, you said that, you know, you've always been a bit at big advocate of doing conversions, but what's changed since you've kind of been in, jump into the deep end and you know, this is all that you do. Right. Well, obviously the tools make a huge difference and you know, going back to being an advocate back in 1998 or nine, you could convert to a Roth and pay the taxes over five years. Mm-hmm. And I was in the industry at that time and I was con, you know, telling everybody that would hear me, Hey, you wanna do this, you wanna do this, you wanna do this? But. The tools for it. We didn't have the tools to say it was a good idea. It was more of, you know, you can probably save taxes and, and you know that it's probably a good idea and you're gonna insulate yourself from any tax increases down the road. But did you really have a tool that, that, that, uh, quantified it? And that's the big difference here. And what I've really learned is that you really can't have a retirement plan. Without evaluating the benefits of a, of a conversion. Oh, you know, for point. That's good. I mean, that is, for me, that was the biggest lesson I took away from, uh, working here, is that you cannot put together a retirement plan unless you've really looked at if the conversion will benefit you. What, what, and and, and what kind of taxes you can save over time. Medicare premiums and ultimately, uh, you know what it'll do to the net value of the account over time. Um, you, you cannot have a retirement plan unless you truly analyze the benefits of converting to a Roth. Yeah. You got anything to add to that, Derek? No, he is absolutely right. Um, the other part that I left out was, you know, numbers are one thing and strategies and spreadsheets are, are another, but to be able to display it, To clients in a way that they can understand the benefits of doing it one way or another is, is the other key piece to this where you just, you just don't get that all the time. Forever. Yeah. And you know, one of the things that you guys will get to see the beginning of next week is I've been meeting with the software guy who's finally got our, our most up to date part. And we've got even, we've got a really cool net present value tool that is gonna be part of what we do and we've. Added more charts and graphs to make it a little bit less tabular and a little bit more pictures. But tools make all the difference in the world, you know? Um, we want to go dig a hole. We can dig a hole with a spoon, we can dig a hole with a small shovel, or we can go get a backhoe. And, uh, the backhoe makes that make, gives you the ability to. Dig the hole a lot faster. A lot bigger. And that's, uh, that's kind of where we are with it. So, um, let's transition just a minute. I mean, let's, let's kind get into the framework of, you know, you guys take a lot of calls of people that call in that wanna hear about what we do and maybe engage us in a service. But, you know, a lot of people have, they have some, they have a lot of, uh, fears, um, a lot of objections that. Um, that, that we have to try to help them push through, um, to figure out whether or not, um, Roth conversions are even for them. Can you guys think of some of the biggest, well, some of the most common fears that, uh, you hear from people when you're kind of before they've engaged us and even after, but, um, Ted, what are some of the ones that. You hear the most? What are some of the things that people are telling you? I mean, the obvious one is the fear of paying taxes. Right? So, and they're so used to deferring, deferring, deferring. So, you know, they're on, they're talking to us because they're fearful of taxes. But ironically, they're fearful of paying the taxes now too when they do the conversion. So, you know, they look at a, wow, I'm gonna owe a lot in taxes if I, if I do this conversion. And they can be kind of myopic on, on, okay, I do, I want to pay taxes this year. Do I wanna pay that much in the next several years. But in reality, you know, the savings is, is astronomical. And being able to put a plan together year by year and illustrate year by year, you know, what the tax savings will be over time by, by doing the conversion, uh, now and not. Not delaying, but it really, the, that fear, um, has a lot of people kind of procrastinate or, or just not act at all. And, and in all business, you know, you've gotta fight fear and greed and, and that's one thing with, with, uh, the taxes, you know, fear is, is something that can prevent you. And, and, and, and a lot of cases maybe, uh, promote inaction when action is, is, is, is required and necessary. Yeah. How about you, Derek? What do you see? Yeah, uh, Ted hit it right on, right on the nose. Um, people are fear. They have a little bit, they have a little bit of fear, a little bit of animosity, a little bit of, um, afraid of just doing the wrong thing. And what, what Ted says, they just do nothing. And, and so they come to us after they've been thinking about this for. 2, 3, 4, 5 years have been thinking about doing these Roth conversions and, and, um, so that that fear is behind them, that they're, they just don't wanna do the right, the wrong thing and they don't have the right tools to understand whether it's the right thing for them or not. Um, yeah, and they're just, just not readily available. So you end up, like I said, kicking the can down the road and, and eventually we get to chat with them and hopefully, um, knock some sense into'em. Yeah, hopefully. So, you know, there's, there's something else too that, um, you know, we deal with. Um, it's to a large degree, it, it's also just the fear of that relationship with a financial advisor. Uh, just to be, I mean, you know, before I started doing just this and, and before I decided that the business model that we needed to build our platform on, Had no sales, no financial products, no asset management, no gathering stuff. Before that, I thought we had a very honorable profession. And boy, since I've got to talking to people, man, there's a lot of advisors out there that have just really screwed up. You know, and I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't think it's a hundred percent advisors, but I think a lot of it is, um, the industry. The industry rewards those who are the higher producers and the higher producers gravitate to the things that make them money. And so all of a sudden they just have two or three tools in their toolbox. And, you know, if, if the only tool you have is a hammer, uh, then every problem presents itself as a nail, right? Um, I mean, maybe your experience has been different than mine, but I hear a lot of people that are just afraid to trust. That we really can help them with this and that, that we really don't have another, another motive. Do you guys hear that in your calls with people? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think typically I, and we're an open book here, I, I constantly invite clients, their advisors, CPAs, I. Come have a conversation with us. Let's talk it, let's talk it all through together. Um, and then you've got those folks that really don't like their advisor and they're just, they don't think that they're getting the right advice from that advisor as well. But, but then again, they just met us, whether it was, you know, through one of your. Um, webinars or, or you know, Facebook or something like that. And we're just this random internet company potentially, they don't really know what to Yeah, what to trust. So it's, it's, it's very much a long process for that, for those folks to get around to it. But for the most part, I think, um, you know, I think we, we show them the ability to, um, have something you can trust in. And that's numbers. Yeah. Yeah. And, and motivation. You know, if our motives, if our motivation has nothing to do with, how do we brag about more? Assets under management or how do we sell annuity and make a 7% commission on the front end? And then by the way, there, there's nothing wrong with those things. It just has caused people to wonder when they leave a lot of advisor's offices, whether what they just did was in their best interest or in the advisor's best interest. And we, we see and hear that a lot of the time. Yeah. And you know, I'm a guy that's been in the industry 38 years, and I'll tell you that most of the men and women that are in our chair, Do what we do. But in the other world, they're normally pretty honorable people. Um, they just get compensated to do certain things. They're not, they're not out to hurt anybody, but they're, they just get steeped in this environment that says, you do this and you do this, and this is how you solve this problem. And, um, financial products are tools and sometimes you need those tools. Um, thank goodness for the people who do asset management work. Um, for those people who don't wanna do it themselves, they're, I, I believe the investment advisory space in managing money is already pretty well commoditized for the people that are willing to out and do the research. There's a lot of tools out there that somebody can go find and, and do all on their own. Um, but. A lot of people don't wanna do it on their own either. Right. And that's, that's all that. But I think part of what we try to provide folks with is, I don't know, I'll, I'll call it a safe space where whatever, whatever advice we come up with, um, whether we're right or wrong, at least our motivations are pure. And that, that's all we get paid to do is to try to help people to, to come up with that. Um, you know, one of the things that, um, I'll mention too, And we may, we may have enough, um, uh, brain cells when this is over with to remember to put this in the podcast notes. But, um, I've, I'm developing a Roth conversion course and it's not designed to necessarily, Tell you how to get the right answer. It's mainly designed to help you avoid the biggest mistakes that people make around Roth conversions, and that's a course that, I don't know, it'll be 10 or 12 modules. I've already got three or four of them recorded, and we're gonna begin offering that out at an early bird discount to people. But that the whole purpose of that course is just to respond to that group of people that, that all you guys talk to that wants more knowledge. Uh, they wanna understand more, and it also is my way of helping people, people build trust that they, there is a firm in the nation us that is not trying to just give them free Roth conversion advice so we can sell'em a big insurance policy or get them to swap over and manage their money. Are you gonna, um, put like some acronym after people's name? After they go through the course, they're gonna get like a, a certification and they're gonna be a, a Craig Weer, you know, authorized. Oh, Roth convers. I don't know. No, I, I doubt so. We'll, only you guys are gonna be ologists, you know, that, that'll be your, that'll be your deal. Um, everybody else just kind of gets it for their own benefit. For sure. But it's all cool stuff. So, you know, one of the, one of the things I've loved about my entire career is just being able to connect with people. You know, and, and the, and the three of us, as I say that statement, you probably have got names of people and faces and family situations, and I have often said one, one of my biggest blessings of my entire life, outside of my wife and my kids and my family, is the relationships that I've been able to build with people who have. Invited me into their life and allowed me to walk with them for a short period of time or a long period of time to just share with them the things that worked for other people that came before them that I would try to sprinkle on them like gold dust. And if they implemented them, they would have, you know, similar results. But can you, can you guys share a couple of maybe wins that you've seen recently? Um, you know, leave, we'll leave the clients, you know, full names out to protect private their privacy. But what are some things, some stories that come to mind of people, kinda a before and after type of situation that you've watched happen? Uh, Ted. Yeah, today I, I talked to a CPA and one of my clients and it was, it was fantastic. And basically, um, what I did is, is put together, uh, a plan that included qualified charitable contributions and. Uh, and, and, and, and, and also, uh, uh, the Roth conversion. Uh, the client wanted a certain amount of money left to his, his heirs in the Roth ira that was tax free. And then as far as the, the QC ds, he wanted to, you know, kind of, uh, uh, do a certain amount every year and then leave the rest of charity. Um, because we talked to all the professionals, I had a conversation with both his and hi, he and his CPA today. Uh, you know, they're absolutely thrilled with the plan that was put together and, you know, just knowing that you're able to help somebody get the money to his heirs and to his charity, um, in, in such a, in such a tax efficient way too, that his money's being spent the way he wants to spend it, um, was extremely satisfying. Yeah. How about you, Derek? Um, I mean, one that comes to mind was, uh, a woman I'm, I'm working with right now. Um, we initially chatted probably a month ago. Uh, her husband had just passed away unexpectedly. She's still in her, uh, early sixties and, um, just had been thinking about this. So we talked, but she really wasn't ready to go forward, you know, she said, I need to talk to the family. I need to talk to my advisor. A couple weeks later, she called me back and said, I wanna do this. Um, you know, and, and me not knowing exactly how much I thought that we'd be able to show her in, in tax avoidance, but it turned out to be an amazing, uh, Situation for her. Um, she's got the perfect amount of income, the perfect situation, even though she's single now. Um, and the perfect amount of assets and the savings are incredible. And, you know, she's, she's like over the moon. She's so happy she did it. She was very reluctant to do it in the first place. She's talking about how proud her husband would've been. So it's just, it was really a cool, oh, that's awesome. You know, a cool experience. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. That's cool. You know, one of the most interesting ones that I worked on, a couple within the last few years was a guy that, uh, he was, he was married, made a lot of money. Um, his income was really high and he didn't really save a lot of money, but he made some great investments. Early on in Apple and Tesla and Nvidia and the big names that just skyrocketed. And so he ended up with a, an IRA that was, my recollection is about six, six or$8 million. Six is probably a closer number, and he had no money in the Roth. He had just turned, uh, 59 and a half years old. And fortunately for him, he also had a little bit of money that was outside of that in just brokerage accounts. But was it, what was interesting for him is that he was, he had a, a particular option strategy that he was using, that he was trading in that after tax account. And as you guys know, every time you, every time you collect options premium, it's fully taxable income at full tax rates. So he was generating. A couple hundred thousand dollars a year. He had retired early from his job because his options stuff was going great and he was cranking out a couple hundred thousand dollars a year plus he had all this IRA just kind of growing. It was gonna continue to grow. So what, what I talked to him about doing was swapping it out using the money that he was using options trading for to pay taxes to get this money converted. And once he got this money converted, now he's still doing his options trading, but it was inside the Roth ira. As opposed to outside of that, and we put together a complete income distribution game plan that he ended up, I think the number was, you know, four and a half million dollars he saved in taxes just by doing that one little thing. You know? So it, it's, it's pretty amazing. It can be kind of, I don't know, for me it's kind of fun stuff trying to figure out where all the pieces of the puzzle belong. Right. So when we, when we when, for people that are maybe listening to the podcast and they're kind of thinking, gosh, you know, am I really a good candidate for Roth conversions or not? Um, what, uh, Derek, we'll start with you. Uh, what, what, what situation, what personal situation, and you alluded to it in your last comment, but give us some more detail. What, what situations point to there being significant? Tax avoidance for clients that do Roth conversions, what are the elements that really you've seen come together to create a kind of a perfect opportunity? Yeah. Well, I mean the, the phrase that you've coined the IRA millionaire, that's obviously one of the key, key components to that. Um, anywhere between the late fifties. To early seventies, you know, it's a good time to do things. You maybe you've stopped working, um, your income has dropped a little bit. You've got a lot of room there to do some conversions within those tax brackets. Um, and then income wise, I mean, if you're really kind of live within your means and you're not really utilizing those IRA assets to sustain your lifestyle, that's another great key component to, to whether or not this makes a lot of sense for you as well. So, I mean that, I'd say those are some big ones. Ted, you got any? Yeah, I mean that's the key is, is how much do you need the IRA money, that tax deferred bucket of money, that, uh, for living expenses. And, and the reality is, is that we talk to a lot of frugal people every day and they've done a great job saving, and it's not by accident that now they're in this position that. Um, you know, they've been successful. They've got a lot of taxes to pay. How can they, uh, avoid paying as much as, as, as they're, they're gonna have to pay if they do nothing at all. So if you don't need that money, uh, you know, uh, a lot of that IRA money for your living expenses or none of it, some of it, our folks don't need any of it. The conversion makes all the sense in the world. You can leave a lot of, lot of extra money to your heirs tax free, and, uh, You know, you'll, you'll grow, grow awfully wealthy over time and, and know that, that not even care if tax rates go up. That's a good point. Yeah. You know, a lot of, some of the comments that I get, um, because of that Ira Millionaire phrase, um, There are some people that get their nose outta joint a little bit and they get their feelings hurt, thinking that we're excluding people, that they're not, they don't have enough money for us to work with, which is, that's a pretty common thing in the financial industry. Right? And you gotta have X amount before I work with you, but ours is actually the opposite. What we're really saying is, if you're not at that IRA millionaire status, you probably. Aren't gonna benefit from our strategies because you have arranged your life in a way where the resulting required minimum distributions are probably not gonna cause you all the problems that people who put that much more money away into IRAs. And so if you're sitting here with.$500,000 and you're thinking that we're being exclusive. It's not that, it's just that you don't, there's no reason for you to pay us or anybody else. You probably don't have that problem. So, um, and I, we did, there's another podcast that I did that is the situations where Roth conversions are not really a good idea. And you might find that podcast in the list. You know, on our, on our website, you can find you, you maybe are on Spotify or Apple or wherever, listen to this, but you can go to our website and easily find, um, those old episodes that are all kind of right there for you. But, so we're not trying to exclude anybody, we're just really trying to do you a good service and say, look. If this isn't you, you probably, you probably don't need this. You probably just kind of forget about it. But we do have resources that will help people to kind of process that, um, through that. And you can see that there are educational resources on the website that'll help you with some of that as well. The books are there, workbooks, all that kind of stuff is there. So, um, any final thoughts? Website's looking pretty. Website's looking pretty shiny these days. It's looking pretty, pretty tight. Craig. Yeah, I tell ya, you know, the marketing guys are polishing that thing up. It's, yeah, it's pretty cool. We got all the, the client testimonials up there and we got, you know, popups and Yeah, we're, you know, we, we might actually, you know, keep that website for a little bit longer. That's awesome. Yeah. Hey, Ted, Ted, Ted, you got any final thoughts, man? Anything we didn't talk about that's on your, on your mind or on your heart? Well, I just, you know, we've got a great service. We're looking out for the best interests of our clients, and, you know, I, I love doing what I do every day because I can do what's in their best interest and, and I'm not competing with really anybody. I'm just trying to look out for their best interest and act as a fiduciary. Um, life couldn't be better. Yeah. How about you, Derek? Any other final comments? Uh, I would echo Ted's comments as well. It feels good to be able to do the right thing for clients all the time. Um, and, uh, it's taken, taken me a long time to get there in my career. I think I'm there now and, uh, feels pretty good. Yeah. And you know, the, when you're working for the big companies that you guys worked for, you know, you, I'm, I'm confident that you always did the right thing, but there was always the pressure. From somewhere. Some, some sales leader board, some manager, some outside resource, somebody that wanted you to do things a different way. And to be able to do it without having to go to battle every time is, is pretty cool. And you know, we've got, we're, we're adding new CFPs all the time. And, um, you know, you guys, if, if I were, if I were out there listening in into this, Uh, there are a lot of options available for folks and I, I would say go talk to some of them. You know, find out what's out there, learn a little bit. Um, I, I'm pretty confident in saying that we are the only firm that I'm aware of in the United States that only does strategy work. Um, there are others that offer Roth conversion advice. They'll offer printouts. But those are printouts that have the same paradigms built in that cause most financial advisors and CPAs to not really get the answer right. And so you want to you, but you need to, I think you need to kind of go kiss a few frogs before you really realize you know, what you're getting when you come to a firm like ours. Um, because we don't use those tools to just get you in the door so we can sell you something else. Um, We don't have that something else. Our, these guys support their families and the causes that are important to them through. Doing one thing and one thing only, and in my opinion, they're the best in the country at what we do. So we would invite you to, uh, go to craig.com, check that part out. Uh, the podcast today is really mainly to try to give you just kind of the, the, the inside scoop on, you know, kind of three dudes just talking about what we do for a living. In the context of you listening in as a fly on the wall to kind of figure out, you know, what we're all about. So, uh, that's too long for a podcast title. Three dudes just talking about things that they do. That's too long. You gotta, you gotta shorten that song. Uh, how about I just call it the inside scoop or something like that? Perfect. And the emblems gonna be like an ice cream scoop. Let's do it. Let's go. Yeah, yeah, let's do that. So, uh, Ted, thank you for hunting me down and, uh, finding me many, many months ago and, um, it's been great Derek. Um, I appreciate the fact that you, you know, put me through the grill and figuring out what we're really all about before you decided to come on board. But glad to have you guys here. So, you know, for those of you listen in, this is yet another. Episode in the Can. We're done with it. We're gonna put it out in production and be out there for the world to hear. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to hit the subscribe button if you wanna know the next time we decide to have one dude or three dudes, or five dudes just talking about whatever. We'd love to have you listen in and always, um, welcome your questions. So you guys have a great rest of your day, Ted, Derek, thank you guys for being part of the team. Thanks. We'll talk to you soon. All right. Thank you, Craig.